tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post115141221351301931..comments2024-03-19T07:48:54.021-06:00Comments on Gus Van Horn: Tracinski Lays an EggGus Van Hornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1152049710610084852006-07-04T15:48:00.000-06:002006-07-04T15:48:00.000-06:00David,THIS is the one and only point Tracinski cou...David,<BR/><BR/>THIS is the one and only point Tracinski could have brought up and actually made any sense, and I agree with it because if there is anything I find annoying about international soccer, this is it.<BR/><BR/>Soccer, like any other game, is no substitute for real life. We Americans have not quite mastered the game yet, but those of us who do apperciate it at least know how, unlike many fans from abroad, to keep it in perspective.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by.<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1152037892807579932006-07-04T12:31:00.000-06:002006-07-04T12:31:00.000-06:00I think soccer is a great game. I play it myself ...I think soccer is a great game. I play it myself and enjoy it very much. It requires a great deal of creativity and thought, that's why I like it. <BR/><BR/>I think Tracinski might have made a better point if he dwelled on the way that Europeans (and the rest of the world except America) view the World Cup. The way they view it certainly has collectivist/tribal overtones. If their country defeats another country the supporter will genuinely feel great pride and boastfulness and superiority towards the defeated country's supporters. Why?<BR/><BR/>The players themselves are much more passionate when they play for their country in comparison to when they play for their club teams. There are far more tears when they lose and far more joy when they win.<BR/><BR/>Soccer is a way for small nations to humble large nations. The Rest-of-the-World enjoy the fact that America is not the best at soccer. Even though victory over America in soccer means absolutely nothing, the Rest-of-the-World takes some solace from their victory over America in soccer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151967011385995002006-07-03T16:50:00.000-06:002006-07-03T16:50:00.000-06:00Great horse-whipping of a foolish position Gus, an...Great horse-whipping of a foolish position Gus, and well deserved. There is no such thing as a socialistic sport, because a socialistic sport would be truly pointless to watch. And that’s why sports metaphors are such a useful tool to help illustrate the evils of government regulation such as antitrust. <BR/><BR/>Besides, if the issue is the use of the hands, why didn’t Tracinski write an ode to rugby? I wait—I bet Wakeland and Tracinski think socialism lurks in rugby’s dark underbelly as well . . .Nicholas Provenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10926131141263622350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151473810306964562006-06-27T23:50:00.000-06:002006-06-27T23:50:00.000-06:00Hi,Thanks to everyone for weighing in here. I thin...Hi,<BR/><BR/>Thanks to everyone for weighing in here. I think D. Eastbrook pretty well sums up what I see are as the two issues here (TIA's quality and soccer as an optional value). I am pretty much where he is on both,<BR/><BR/>And I'll add something else. What bugs me about people who go out of their way to ridicule soccer (as opposed to the kind of good-natured ribbing Myrhaf speaks of) is that <B>soccer is an optional value</B>. This makes such attacks mean-spirited at best and nihilistic at worst, as <B>an attack on values</B>. (The motivation completely escapes me. When I don't like something, I basically forget about it or say something to the effect of "whatever floats your boat" and move on.)<BR/><BR/>This is what makes Tracinski's attack on soccer such an unpleasant surprise. (And what's more, he even admitted today that he "suspected" that his "comments yesterday expressing a disparaging view of soccer [would be] controversial for a few of TIA Daily's readers". He published two pro-soccer letters, but the whole thing was silly at best and not what I'm paying him to do in any event.)<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, as an Objectivist, he should have a fair idea of what it's like to be on the receiving end of that kind of "humor" to begin with. That being the case, why dish it out for something completely innocent like soccer?<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151472338429878262006-06-27T23:25:00.000-06:002006-06-27T23:25:00.000-06:00Gus:THANK YOU. Great article, with some great anal...Gus:<BR/><BR/>THANK YOU. Great article, with some great analogies and great points. I get sick of the anti-soccer crowd, too: ignorant drunken rationlizing bohemians. I can understand not liking it -- we all have personal tastes -- but to attack soccer as anti-man is irrational.<BR/><BR/>I played soccer for years -- elementary school through high school, where I was on a team that went to state playoffs. I absolutely love the game.<BR/><BR/>The intensity, focus, and creativity you have to show on the field is unbelievable. There have been studies done (as I was told growing up) that show that you have to make more decisions in soccer per unit time than in most other sports. <BR/><BR/>No, we don't like games ending 0-0 or 1-1, but we have to earn points, and earn them hard. As you point out, it takes long-range, cooperative action of individuals. Sounds like baseball, huh? (Whose scores can often be low and disappointing, too.)<BR/><BR/>For that matter, it sounds like what one might do on a hunting expedition. And it sounds a lot closer to a hunting expedition than does football or basketball.<BR/><BR/>In soccer, as in ballet, you don't have to score for there to be excitement. The Brazillians, for example, can play some damn good exciting ball without scoring too much. They create space and opportunities out of nothing; it is exciting watching an individual do that, and watching a few of his teammates create havoc with the opposing team. The quickness with which they can react and create is...well, damn holy. The action in itself is exciting, as in ballet. <BR/><BR/>--CyranoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151454227287470012006-06-27T18:23:00.000-06:002006-06-27T18:23:00.000-06:00"To the extent that it 'takes hold' here in Americ..."To the extent that it 'takes hold' here in America is the extent we succumb to European collectivism even more than we already have."<BR/><BR/>I don't know if this is true but conservatives for the most part think it is. I think that many conservatives hate soccer because they associate it with European socialism and pacifism. <BR/><BR/>While there are many things to hate regarding European culture (most of which we suffer from too), soccer is not one of them. Tracinski's piece once again shows that at times he sounds eerily similar to a conservative. <BR/><BR/>Philosphically, I would say that one's choice between the NFL or soccer is a case of optional values. To make a case that one is inherently more "individualistic" or "capitalistic" is pure rationalism. <BR/><BR/>I second Myrhaf's concern for the quaility of TIA's writing.<BR/><BR/>D. EastbrookAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151452793460987312006-06-27T17:59:00.000-06:002006-06-27T17:59:00.000-06:00Yo, Gus, if Tracinski's article was tongue-in-chee...Yo, Gus, if Tracinski's article <I>was</I> tongue-in-cheek, it's well-nigh impossible to tell, given the way it was put on an equal footing with indubitably serious news stories. It provoked a disbelieving snort from me when I read it, truth be told. While the article Tracinski linked to does have some funny bits, it compared unfavorably with, say, George Carlin's routine about baseball or the argument of a friend of mine that American football is the only truly Aristotelian team sport (in which he ended up sounding exactly like George Carlin, heh), or even a British character remarking on the supposed virility of a country whose men see fit to put on 40 pounds of padding to play rugby. Now, when opposing teams start launching pointed sticks at each other with a bat (yes, it's a real game, <I>gagar,</I> played among the Uyghurs), then we'll have truly virile sports. After all, it's only fun and games until someone puts an eye out--then it's <I>sports</I>. Heh.Adrian Hesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13394227341130065130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151446574175775682006-06-27T16:16:00.000-06:002006-06-27T16:16:00.000-06:00I had the same reaction as Gus to Tracinski's comm...I had the same reaction as Gus to Tracinski's comment today. Way to go Gus for setting him straight! <BR/><BR/>Actually, I'm not a big sports fan either but to the extent I like any sports I enjoy world cup soccer and basketball.Gideonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806423185226885594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151445225084543312006-06-27T15:53:00.000-06:002006-06-27T15:53:00.000-06:00At the risk of losing my 'blogging friend' Gus, I ...At the risk of losing my 'blogging friend' Gus, I must say that, while I don't 'hate' soccer, I find it a dreadful bore [I mean a 0-0 score after 90-100 minutes of play? C'mon!!!], nor do I care for the traveling goon squads of drunken louts who are 'fans' of their team. To the extent that it 'takes hold' here in America is the extent we succumb to European collectivism even more than we already have. That, to me, would be a sad day indeed. Give me the NFL 100% of the time, baby!!!SecFox HQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196582317495849249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151441179625358392006-06-27T14:46:00.000-06:002006-06-27T14:46:00.000-06:00I hate soccer and hockey. I sometimes joke that s...I hate soccer and hockey. I sometimes joke that soccer is un-American, but that's just joking. If Tracinski is joking, his tongue is deep in his cheek. If he is not joking, then Gus is right: stupid, no-nothing piece of writing. This and Wakeland's opinion that we should not criticize President Bush are making me wonder about TIA.Myrhafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16340507405537605164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151441127188067522006-06-27T14:45:00.000-06:002006-06-27T14:45:00.000-06:00My supervisor is into soccer to the extent that he...My supervisor is into soccer to the extent that he's been taking days off work to watch the U.S. play at the World Cup. Now THERE's dedication.<BR/><BR/>All sports and games contain arbitrary or semi-arbitrary rules; it's what makes them HARD. If the rules make the game ESPECIALLY hard, then it's a matter of some status just to be halfway-decent at it! For a sport with some crazy whacked-out rules (can you say "right-of-way"?) try Fencing.<BR/><BR/>Soccer would be a joke if the players were allowed to use their hands, not to mention us ladies would be denied the sight of those fantastically developed legs flashing across the screen. Yowza.Jennifer Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00039865566870992465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151439238854740502006-06-27T14:13:00.000-06:002006-06-27T14:13:00.000-06:00Anon,You could be right about Tracinski's comments...Anon,<BR/><BR/>You could be right about Tracinski's comments being made in jest. But when you're used to reading sourpuss slams about soccer every four years, it does make you a little predisposed to straighten them out.<BR/><BR/>I was a little bit straightening him out and cracking wise at the same time. While I wasn't in a perticularly sour mood when I wrote this, it is interesting to learn that I might have come across that way.<BR/><BR/>Bo,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your support, especially if I did sound as beseiged to you as I did to that other guy!<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151429827609220172006-06-27T11:37:00.000-06:002006-06-27T11:37:00.000-06:00i didn't know a darned thing about soccer until my...i didn't know a darned thing about soccer until my oldest daughter started playing in the 5-6 year olds league. that was years ago. when i ended up the coach by default two days after the season started, i learned fast. and i learned to love the game.<BR/>at work, i am the lone ranger regarding soccer, except for the french speaking african i work with. we constantly catch crap for talking soccer. too badbothenookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445188466344982169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1151429810236257232006-06-27T11:36:00.000-06:002006-06-27T11:36:00.000-06:00I could understand a pro-soccer pitch and an attem...I could understand a pro-soccer pitch and an attempt to educate the reader as to some of soccer's merits. And some of the baseball inflation ideas and all would have made them well and trully funny with a different presentation. But this thing reads like the party downer who doesn't understand that the people around him are telling jokes and sets about trying to straighten them out.<BR/><BR/>I thought Tracinski's points were hillarious, and it wouldn't have even occurred to me that someone might take them so seriously!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com