tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post5190700834932712967..comments2024-03-19T07:48:54.021-06:00Comments on Gus Van Horn: Slow Roundup 2Gus Van Hornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-56703134193688626992007-12-21T07:39:00.000-06:002007-12-21T07:39:00.000-06:00Matt, I think Miss Manners would have given you a ...Matt, <BR/><BR/>I think Miss Manners would have given you a pass even for a full-fledged belly laugh for that one!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing!<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-9534535872278295562007-12-21T00:38:00.000-06:002007-12-21T00:38:00.000-06:00One of the reasons for my intense distaste for pro...One of the reasons for my intense distaste for protracted periods of interaction with the general public is that inevitably you will have to stand in line, wait at a bus stop or something along those lines with a big clump of them. In such a situation, it is nearly impossible to block them out completely. Staying focused enough to navigate through the activity at hand necessarily means allowing some of their blathering to slip in. <BR/>Yesterday, in a check-out line in Best Buy, I heard the woman in front me say into her cell phone that here children were only getting three presents a piece because that is how many presents Jesus got (you know, the three wise men and all)--although I'm sure Jesus would've liked the portable DVD player better than myrrh. I was unable to suppress the involuntary snorting chuckle I let out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-6378696610322071442007-12-20T15:51:00.000-06:002007-12-20T15:51:00.000-06:00Twice as Less.The title comes from one of the very...<I>Twice <B>as</B> Less</I>.<BR/><BR/>The title comes from one of the very types of usage considered in the book and found to hamper comprehension of certain types of mathematical concepts.<BR/><BR/>I strongly recommend the book.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-41316335754774863812007-12-20T15:14:00.000-06:002007-12-20T15:14:00.000-06:00There's definitely a connection between psycho-epi...There's definitely a connection between psycho-epistemology and these kinds of dialect issues. One of the major reasons I don't speak that way is because I don't <I>think</I> that way. Such a dialect doesn't allow me to express my thoughts. It's simply an inadequate tool for my personal expression.<BR/><BR/>The interesting question, as you say, is to what extent the causality runs the other way. It could be that exposure to poor speech contributes to poor thinking. It's also possible that the presence of poor speech implies poor thinking in the adults, and that poor thinking gets used as a model by the child. As children, we tend to view the behavior of our parents as definitionally "normal", or at least acceptable, and that applies both cognitively and existentially.<BR/><BR/>It's interesting that you mentioned <I>Twice Is Less</I>. While I haven't read it myself, I was aware of it and actually thought of it while writing my earlier comment. I'd love to see more solid research on these kinds of psycho-epistemological/linguistic connections from an Objectivist standpoint.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-55749353243227490712007-12-20T11:32:00.000-06:002007-12-20T11:32:00.000-06:00It is at times like this that I wish the cultural ...It is at times like this that I wish the cultural war were being won and you had a few more Objectivists in fields like linguistics. I take the pattern you detect as arising at least in part from from the dialect. <BR/><BR/>This does not exclude an epistemological problem as an explanation. In fact, it leads to another interesting question: How much of an effect can learned language patterns have on conceptual development?<BR/><BR/>The closest thing I have ever seen to an attempt to entertain such a question is the book, by Eleanor Wilson Orr on Black American Vernacular called <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Twice-As-Less-Performance-Mathematics/dp/0393317412/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198171755&sr=8-1" REL="nofollow"><I>Twice as Less</A></I>. I read it years ago, but it was very interesting.<BR/><BR/>As for the <A HREF="http://sparkasynapse.blogspot.com/2007/11/next-generation.html" REL="nofollow">blog post</A> you mention, I didn;t round it up today, but perhaps I should have.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-59117720004681993782007-12-20T10:37:00.000-06:002007-12-20T10:37:00.000-06:00I'm intrigued by the use of "I've got the sugar" a...I'm intrigued by the use of "I've got the sugar" as a description of diabetes, and "I've got the high blood" as a description of high blood pressure. Both constructions have something in common: they take a random concrete extracted from a longer proper description of the symptom and use it as a label. What makes them funny is that the concretes selected are random, not essential. (This is particularly true of the second one, in which the concrete is literally at the word level.)<BR/><BR/>I have this vision of a patient faced with a diagnosis he doesn't understand, grasping at straws in a futile attempt to grasp what the doctor is saying. The mentality on display in these cases is seemingly incapable of abstraction and essentialization. Rather, it is tragically concrete-bound. I can't help but connect it to the post of Monica's you linked to in today's Quick Roundup, on grading public school exams.<BR/><BR/>It's amazing to me how many problems in the modern world can be traced back to concrete-bound, short-term thinking. There's an article there waiting to be written.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-45502191757368159922007-12-20T08:45:00.000-06:002007-12-20T08:45:00.000-06:00I for one, am all for resurrecting that older, mor...I for one, am all for resurrecting that older, more pejorative meaning of "enthusiasm".<BR/><BR/>A small part of the battle for a more rational culture (and by no means a substitute for putting forth strong arguments in favor of rational philosophical positions), is to show support for the good.<BR/><BR/>Our culture is saturated with enthusiasm for mindlessness and even worship of thuggery. Expressing contempt for the sort of mindlessness I have described, along with open support for the good, is something I think we must do as well.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-90847331181306217142007-12-20T08:25:00.000-06:002007-12-20T08:25:00.000-06:00"[...] 'The Holy Spirit was talking to me.' [...] ..."[...] 'The Holy Spirit was talking to me.' [...] That was just the wind of superstition howling at the last few flames of the Enlightenment."<BR/><BR/>I know very little of the Enlightenment, as a period of history, but I have been reading a little lately, mostly in Peter Gay's two-volume <I>The Enlightenment</I>; in various articles in the four-volume <I>Encyclopedia of the Enlightenment</I>; and in biographies of Kant, whose life spanned much of the period.<BR/><BR/>One tentative conclusion I have drawn is that, as progressive and exciting as the period was <I>compared</I> to the preceding period, it was nevertheless a period of turmoil, conflict, brutality, mysticism, and emotionalism in some of its elements. <BR/><BR/>From one bookend of the Enlightenment to the other--from Locke (d. 1704) to Kant (d. 1804)--advocates of the Enlightenment (including, officially, Kant) struggled against "enthusiasts." These people believed God (theo-) was in (en-) them, talking to them directly.<BR/><BR/>Some periods of history are more positive than others for objective people. However, I suspect that generally the elements of the various periods are similar. Only the proportions change.Burgess Laughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13865479709475171678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-7623023572127306052007-12-20T01:09:00.000-06:002007-12-20T01:09:00.000-06:00Yes, but also understood not to be proper English,...Yes, but also understood not to be proper English, and by an educated person, not used at all by people from outside the South, particularly any doctors fitting that description on the staff.<BR/><BR/>It's one thing for someone who doesn't know better to say something like that, but quite another for someone who does to keep doing so.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-4631834393431381862007-12-20T00:31:00.000-06:002007-12-20T00:31:00.000-06:00In fairness I think that in the South that the ter...In fairness I think that in the South that the term would be widely understood.Clayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01355381643953755204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-85592006056658026412007-12-20T00:28:00.000-06:002007-12-20T00:28:00.000-06:00What blows my mind about such constructions is the...What blows my mind about such constructions is the high degree of cluelessness or indifference it takes to use them as adults.<BR/><BR/>To produce "DFO" on a hospital chart, one has to go through at least 14 years of eductaion and fail to notice that <B>most people don't speak that way</B> -- or fail to give a damn that they don't.<BR/><BR/>Mind-blowing....Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-9891745010979577812007-12-20T00:17:00.000-06:002007-12-20T00:17:00.000-06:00When my brother-in-law went to work at a hospital ...When my brother-in-law went to work at a hospital near Memphis he was looking at a chart which said, "DFO." <BR/><BR/>He racked his brain trying to figure out what obscure terminology from medical school that he simply must have forgotten. Upon asking a nurse he was informed that "DFO" stand for "Done Fell Out." <BR/><BR/>Other related terminology was "I've got the sugar" for I have diabetes, and "I have the high blood" for high blood pressure.<BR/><BR/>DFO is still the best if for no other reason than the fact that the nurses actually write it on the charts.Clayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01355381643953755204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-71986104167561868652007-12-19T21:03:00.000-06:002007-12-19T21:03:00.000-06:00Kyle and Anon.,You both bring up a good point, and...Kyle and Anon.,<BR/><BR/>You both bring up a good point, and it is more obvious with the far more common practice of saying "Bless you!" after a sneeze or "God bless America." I had thought of the benevolence angle myself, and almost didn't post that item at all on that basis.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that most of the time, that is the case, and would continue acting as I have, but perhaps stressing a secular alternative as Kyle advises. <BR/><BR/>But last night, someone really rubbed me the wrong way, and then "blessed me off", so to speak. As a result, it occurred to me that both (a) I didn't have a good, ready reply in reserve for that person, and (b) I hadn't really thought through the issue very much anyway. So I threw it out there.<BR/><BR/>I think I have a bead on the snappy reply I want and the right perspective on the whole issue.<BR/><BR/>Thank you both for your input.<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-63065256507843222007-12-19T18:09:00.000-06:002007-12-19T18:09:00.000-06:00I have to question your assumption that "Have a bl...I have to question your assumption that "Have a blessed day" should be interpreted as rude or religious hectoring. It's a statement of goodwill expressed in a form consistent with religious principles -- that doesn't make it an attempt to push religion. Everybody expresses themselves in ways consistent with their basic premises. Ayn Rand used to wish people "good premises" and ask them "how's your universe?" Should we view that as a rude attempt to impose atheism on religious listeners? If so, why is it OK for Rand to be rude, but not the religious, and if not, what's the difference?<BR/><BR/>I think the best approach is simply to return the statement of goodwill in a manner consistent with your own premises, with a faint stress on the secular term you choose as an alternative. Rand's "good premises" is a candidate here, or perhaps "have a benevolent universe"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-60418080530100511612007-12-19T17:57:00.000-06:002007-12-19T17:57:00.000-06:00What about a snappy comeback for all the Allahers ...What about a snappy comeback for all the Allahers who say 'salam' instead of Good Morning?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-49263465499896082422007-12-19T13:04:00.000-06:002007-12-19T13:04:00.000-06:00I like the second better. The first too easily loo...I like the second better. The first too easily looks like they've "gotten to you" (beyond simple rudeness) enough to have made you stoop to borrowing from their pantheon.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-28911442002178442652007-12-19T12:36:00.000-06:002007-12-19T12:36:00.000-06:00Tell them "Thanks, Lord Satan loves you, too!"Eith...Tell them "Thanks, Lord Satan loves you, too!"<BR/><BR/>Either that or, "I didn't sneeze, what are you talking about?"Jennifer Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00039865566870992465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-34364943629394500472007-12-19T12:15:00.000-06:002007-12-19T12:15:00.000-06:00I have heard that Target keeps the "guilt bells" a...I have heard that Target keeps the "guilt bells" away, and I've wondered the same thing.<BR/><BR/>The ban <A HREF="http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/charity/sallyann.asp" REL="nofollow">exists</A> only because the bell-ringers had been the lone exception to a corporate policy against allowing solicitors.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-79522640070345066892007-12-19T12:03:00.000-06:002007-12-19T12:03:00.000-06:00Somebody I know once referred to the Salvation Arm...Somebody I know once referred to the Salvation Army bells as "guilt bells." <BR/><BR/>Target stores do not allow those bell-ringers on their property. It would probably be hard to accurate calculate this, but I would love to know if keeping those people away increases their Christmas sales. I've done a lot of my shopping there!Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582845477209516725noreply@blogger.com