tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post5682140198636110736..comments2024-03-19T07:48:54.021-06:00Comments on Gus Van Horn: Free Market Rhetoric, Indeed!Gus Van Hornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-63241699408967559982009-10-31T08:46:31.705-06:002009-10-31T08:46:31.705-06:00Steve,
Many better Libertarians, and I have known...Steve,<br /><br />Many better Libertarians, and I have known a few, are initially shocked to learn what a mess their party is. <br /><br />I suspect that most simply see the results for themselves rather than have someone point them out, as well as why they are a direct consequence of the libertarian approach of dismissing the importance of fundamental ideas.<br /><br />Most of them simply leave, although I worry a little that too many do so without fully understanding the source of their frustration, and therefore end up cynically rejecting the whole idea of reversing the trend towards statism in America.<br /><br />GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-87907319998314052432009-10-31T06:49:29.939-06:002009-10-31T06:49:29.939-06:00Gus,
That's an interesting Wikipedia entry. I...Gus,<br /><br />That's an interesting Wikipedia entry. I didn't realize that about the Libertarian Party. - well I already knew they were a mess but its worse than I thought.<br /><br />I don't see how you can have a debate without two sides so that's proof enough me.<br /><br />SteveSteve Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-57286359819195284002009-10-31T05:12:28.620-06:002009-10-31T05:12:28.620-06:00Interesting.
Also interesting is the fact that ma...Interesting.<br /><br />Also interesting is the fact that many anarchist thinkers are regarded as important to libertarian thought. (Block could well be one of these.) Whatever the official position of the LP on anarchists, the movement treats the question of anarchism as an in-house squabble rather than a fundamental issue. That and the frequent collaborations between anarchists and libertarians on things like this (which are, by nature, not merely <i>ad hoc</i> measures), renders the question of whether there are anarchist members of the LP moot.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-49584038284618049412009-10-31T03:43:08.808-06:002009-10-31T03:43:08.808-06:00I don't know about the party but the free stat...I don't know about the party but the free state project certainly has anarchists and libertarian conservatives involved. There are some rational minds there but in a large sea of mess including market "socialists" libertines. Truly a big mess.Monoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-51030906720528667592009-10-29T21:44:29.109-06:002009-10-29T21:44:29.109-06:00Steve,
I don't know any personally, but given...Steve,<br /><br />I don't know any personally, but given the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)#.22Principle.22_vs._.22Pragmatism.22_debate" rel="nofollow">debate</a> over anarchism that took place within that party and a former in-law's dogged insistence that the LP was "superior" to Objectivism as a movement for not having "litmus tests" (i.e., standards) for membership, I would say it's a pretty safe bet.<br /><br />As <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Block" rel="nofollow">Walter Block</a> <a href="http://gusvanhorn.blogspot.com/2008/01/pauls-chickens-come-home.html" rel="nofollow">once put it</a>:<br /><br />"<i>[Libertarianism] allows for an amazing diversity.... We've seen priests, monogamists, family men as the fellow-Libertarians of the gays, the sado-masochists, the leather-freaks, and those into what they call 'rational bestiality'.... Only Libertarians could gather together the homosexual motorcycle gang, the acid-dropper fascinated by the price of silver, and the Puerto Rican nationalist immersed in the Austrian school of economics.</i>"<br /><br />Murray Rothbard adds:<br /><br />"<i>... Libertarianism is a coalition of adherents from all manner of philosophic (or nonphilosophic) positions, including emotivism, hedonism, Kantian a priorism, and many others. My own position grounds Libertarianism on a natural rights theory embedded in a wider system of Aristotelian-Lockean natural law and a realist ontology and metaphysics. But although those of us taking that position believe that only it provides a satisfactory groundwork as a basis for individual liberty, this is an argument within the libertarian camp about the proper basis and grounding of Libertarianism rather than about the doctrine itself.</i>"<br /><br />Given its history, my own past experience interacting with a member of the LP, and the words of these two major libertarian theorists (at least one of whom, Rothbard, was a member of the LP), I would be far more surprised to learn that there were NOT anarchists in the party.<br /><br />GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-58596785296530571572009-10-29T17:07:01.371-06:002009-10-29T17:07:01.371-06:00Gus,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my ...Gus,<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to respond to my query which was obviously not the main point of your blog entry.<br /><br />I agree with your second paragraph. I did a double take, however after I read your first paragraph. What I didn't know is that there were anarchists in the Libertarian Party. Is this really the case?<br /><br />If so, I don't know what is more absurd, the anarchist joining a political party which by its very nature is working towards running the government or the minarchist willing to belong to the same party.<br /><br />One or the other (or both) can't be acting in a principled manner.<br /><br />SteveSteve Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-35909333851842424952009-10-29T04:11:31.130-06:002009-10-29T04:11:31.130-06:00Mo,
Some don't, some won't, and some deli...Mo,<br /><br />Some don't, some won't, and some deliberately confuse the issue, be it to promote anarchism intentionally or in a short-sighted attempt to gain "allies" in the fight for freedom.<br /><br />GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-24123315090644738732009-10-29T01:57:57.106-06:002009-10-29T01:57:57.106-06:00yeah it seems anarchists can't differentiate b...yeah it seems anarchists can't differentiate between anti-state and statismMonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-82745270228210830762009-10-28T19:23:54.492-06:002009-10-28T19:23:54.492-06:00Steve,
The whole idea that there can be a big ten...Steve,<br /><br />The whole idea that there can be a big tent among the Libertarians that includes anarchists and "minarchists" fighting for a common cause (freedom or mere destruction of the state?) indicates that the Libertarian Party itself IS such an example. <br /><br />What is it fighting for? Freedom or destruction of the state? <br /><br />It's either-or: The fact that an anarchist wants to smash the state while I want to stop Obama from establishing tyranny are not degrees of opposition to the same enemy, but phenomena that differ in KIND to the extent that such an alliance CAN not help my cause (since freedom has to be protected BY a government). Of course, if I help an anarchist achieve his goals, HIS ends are certainly furthered. Destruction is always easier than building.<br /><br />GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-32945028737937287352009-10-28T18:30:49.430-06:002009-10-28T18:30:49.430-06:00Gus,
Great post. Not a lot to add.
"Do not...Gus, <br /><br />Great post. Not a lot to add.<br /><br />"Do not take my word for it. Do not take Ayn Rand's word for it, either. She can make your thinking easier, but obviously, she can't do it for you. Your agreement will mean nothing unless you understand what all of that means for yourself."<br /><br />It is the understanding of how the world works which is so very crucial, especially today. The only way to understand this is to think and keep thinking TO THE CORE. This requires tremendous effort and often considerable time. However, if enough people were to do this, and probably only a small proportion of the total number, it would save the world. This is what Rand did, letting nothing stand in the way of her understanding. We are all capable of it and the choice is up to us.<br /><br />I have a question, though about a point you put in parentheses.<br /><br />"(The ones who do not actually advocate anarchy help those who do by pretending that this is a minor quibble.)"<br /><br />I hadn't noticed this. Do you have examples of this? I don't think it works the other way since those who advocate anarchy usually argue that it is NOT a minor quibble.<br /><br />SteveSteve Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-62037779301672840882009-10-28T18:07:59.531-06:002009-10-28T18:07:59.531-06:00Jasmine,
Thanks for mentioning that, too. Sounds ...Jasmine,<br /><br />Thanks for mentioning that, too. Sounds like I might need to make a general call for this sort of thing on my next roundup post.<br /><br />GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-47556605854581578312009-10-28T17:42:45.326-06:002009-10-28T17:42:45.326-06:00Gus,
while you are updating you may want to know ...Gus,<br /><br />while you are updating you may want to know that your blog is in the list of networkedblogs at http://www.networkedblogs.com/blog/gus_van_horn/<br />The application is easily accessed by individuals on facebook and added to profiles for blogs that people follow -I have yours and 5 others on my list. I get all the blogs with latest updates on one page thru this application. Also you may want to claim yourself as the author of the blog -it currently stands as author unknown!<br /><br />JasmineRational Educationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02520568540990573166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-33922530160484754452009-10-28T14:35:34.816-06:002009-10-28T14:35:34.816-06:00True, but they're coming as soon as I have som...True, but they're coming as soon as I have some time to edit my blog template.Gus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-81505010939179915252009-10-28T13:30:41.254-06:002009-10-28T13:30:41.254-06:00What? No buttons for Twitter or Facebook?What? No buttons for Twitter or Facebook?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14081336591414529365noreply@blogger.com