tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post115793947284266887..comments2024-03-19T07:48:54.021-06:00Comments on Gus Van Horn: Cato: Pretend It's 19th CenturyGus Van Hornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1158806388254556792006-09-20T20:39:00.000-06:002006-09-20T20:39:00.000-06:00Apolla,Conceivably, a country could be duped (dipl...Apolla,<BR/><BR/>Conceivably, a country could be duped (diplomatically or through deception of ints intelligence apparatus) into entering a war against a non-threatening country.<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1158804035735751142006-09-20T20:00:00.000-06:002006-09-20T20:00:00.000-06:00"This would jibe with the definition of war you br..."This would jibe with the definition of war you bring up and shows that war is not subsumed by the concept "crime" -- nor are all acts of war crimes if the attacking party does so in defense of individual rights."<BR/><BR/>Thanks for responding,<BR/><BR/>Actually, I said "-All wars which are not wars of self-defense are crimes- but not all crimes are wars."<BR/><BR/>And if you define a crime as the violation of individual rights, how can a war that is not in self defence not be a crime?Apollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17701446110959016481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1158294521811460942006-09-14T22:28:00.000-06:002006-09-14T22:28:00.000-06:00Apollo,When all else fails, consult a dictionary.W...Apollo,<BR/><BR/>When all else fails, consult a dictionary.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=war&x=0&y=0" REL="nofollow">War</A>: "a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air"<BR/><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crime&x=0&y=0" REL="nofollow">Crime</A>: "an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited."<BR/><BR/>I'd say in brief that it a state does not have to be involved at all for war to occur, although that is the usual context. The essential differences between a war and a crime would appear to be these: (1) In a war, each side is armed. (2) In a crime, one side has definitely injured the other and the injured side may or may not be retaliating or even aware that it has been victimized.<BR/><BR/>So, there can be wars between two wrong sides (as in a gunbattle between thugs), two tragically mistaken sides, and where one side is clearly right. In all cases, both sides are armed and duking it out. An <B>act of war</B> may or may not also be a crime, but it is thus an act carried out before mutual hostilities that would reasonably be expected to provoke the attacked side to retaliate.<BR/><BR/>Thus the attacks of September 11, 2001 were crimes and acts of war.<BR/><BR/>You will note that I never once insisted -- as you seem to believe -- that there had to be a state involved for a state of war to exist between America and al Qaeda. (Although you could fault me for not saying that the anarchist attacks were not merely crimes, but acts of war.) My problem with Carpenter is that he wants to pretend that our conflict is with al Qaeda alone.<BR/><BR/>To summarize so far: In answer to your questions: (1) "Is it only war when a state is involved?" No. (2) "If Al-Qaeda had attacked the WTC with no state sponcership would it have THEN been a crime and not war?" It would have been a crime and an act of war by al Qaeda. <BR/><BR/>Next: "[I]f we want to determine if we should treat a certain act as a crime or an act of war, shouldn't we be looking at what type of organization we are dealing with and their objectives, and not their tactics or ideology?" It is useful here to consider a more restrictive definition of "war" here since we are now discussing how the government will respond. This is because the military is used to protect the citizens' rights against aggressors, usually foreign, (in what the term "war" normally refers to) who seek to overthrow the government. THAT objective determines whether we treat a criminal act as an act of war. (This also answers your next question.)<BR/><BR/>This would jibe with the definition of war you bring up and shows that war is <B>not</B> subsumed by the concept "crime" -- nor are all acts of war crimes if the attacking party does so in defense of individual rights.<BR/><BR/>Hope that helps.<BR/><BR/>GusGus Van Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126749051688217781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8839412.post-1158278760078755142006-09-14T18:06:00.000-06:002006-09-14T18:06:00.000-06:00So, what is the dividing line between a war and a ...So, what is the dividing line between a war and a crime?<BR/><BR/>Is it only war when a state is involved? If Al-Qaeda had attacked the WTC with no state sponcership would it have THEN been a crime and not war?<BR/><BR/>In your post you said that Carpenters analogy "is not a bad analogy, but it confuses tactics with ideology."<BR/><BR/>Im not sure what you mean by this, if we want to determine if we should treat a certain act as a crime or an act of war, shouldn't we be looking at what type of organization we are dealing with and their objectives, and not their tactics or ideology? Since their ideology can be any ideology.<BR/><BR/>If the organiztions "objectives" are what determines if an act is criminal or an act of war, then what objectives are an act of war?<BR/><BR/>And more importantly, is answering this question harder than figuring out if Pluto is a Planet or not? Ok, Just kidding.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I found this definition of war on the strongbrains website, <BR/><BR/>http://strongbrains.com/technology/military/default.htm<BR/><BR/>"War is armed conflict among men, in which a political unit attempts to achieve objectives by means of organized force against other men."<BR/>-Andrew Layman<BR/><BR/>Does this definition imply that only crimes with a political objective(what other objective would a political unit have?) be defined as wars?<BR/><BR/>A crime is commited when you initiate force against an individual or a group of individuals. And what is war? it is basically the initiation of force against a group of individuals or an individual(possible?). So the concept "war" is subsumed by the concept of "crime". All wars which are not wars of self-defense are crimes but not all crimes are wars.<BR/><BR/>Your thoughts?Apollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17701446110959016481noreply@blogger.com